long reply Re: [WSIS CS-Plenary] SMSI site web au Canada

[Robert Guerra]

Lis:

a quick note - my original message was just sent to you and alain. did 
not post it to a list nor a larger forum, a you just have.




--On Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:18 PM -0500 Liss Jeffrey 
<ljeffrey at ecommons.net> wrote:

>
> I must admit that I would not have started this thread, certainly not
> on a global forum, and find surprising the idea that you are now
> implying that a Canadian civil society initiative does not exist, and
> is not welcome? Robert, I do not know how you act usually, however
> calling people "ignorant" is not exactly civil, particularly when you
> have your facts wrong. Since we have links to the important community
> networking global site to which you refer (and which is not a Canada
> specific site) you may wish to revise your erroneous views.

specifically why i sent my original message to you, your collegue and 
alain. I would not post personal remarks as i did in a global, local or 
national forum.



> It is well known that there is a web site for Canadian civil society.

again, my personal view was expressed in the personal message.

I will just say that i have a different opinion - that there is no one 
website that represents canadian civil society at the wsis or any other 
un forum on the information society. There are several - there is a long 
known, and very active youth site that DOES have a canadian centric 
space for discussion and planning, as there are also sites in Quebec, BC 
(at VCN).

A plurality of views is indeed a good thing , as such is canada.




> It was launched in Geneva, a matter that you are fully aware of. We
> reported from Geneva and have done much work to continue to inform
> Canadians and provide a growing platform for Canadian views and voices.
> There continues to be only one specific place for Canadian civil
> society to discuss our next steps, this web site
> http://wsis.ecommons.ca ,

I know there is a site, yes - but am being made aware now for the first 
time that it's THE canadian civil society site. That, is news for me.


> with its French sister site http://smsi.agora-electronique.ca .
> Naturally, we pay close attention to developments elsewhere, cite our
> sources, and feature links so that people can find what matters to
> them. We have been working on these goals in various arenas for a very
> long time, and wish others to know about important work taking place.

that's wonderful - and the initiative is to be applauded, and i do wish 
it success.

> You have been kept informed of this important C2C resource from the
> outset.

other that "there is a site" i haven't specifically been given details 
as to it's direction, focus and mission.

> We had asked for and expected your help.

and i do appreciate you for thinking of me. A busy schedule in the fall, 
and a long awaited extensive back surgery of very close family member 
have made me generally unavailable.

Come march, i will have more time, and be more than happy to not only 
contribute to the site, but bring energy and efforts to make sure that 
both the public and the missing stakeholders (business, press, etc..) 
become more engaged in the information society discussions which are 
starting to take off in canada (thank god!)



>When we started the
> Canadian civil society site, as a labour of love and also as a place
> for civil society voices that specifically could address Canadian
> issues, there was no such gathering spot. There is now, and has been
> since December 2003. We asked Canadian Commission for Unesco for some
> modest seed support for this initiative, and they came through.

great for having recieved the funding from UNESCO. But, I will point out 
that neither you, nor the ecommons group were involved in the earlier 
WSIS rountables held by the commission. So, there was a space being 
created by the unesco sessions - and you, and others have created 
discussion spaces to move that forward. that's wonderfull!

>Mostly
> this is an open source labour of love by the eCommons/agora volunteers
> (who are in many parts of the country).
> FYI then: There continues to be only one specific place for Canadian
> civil society to discuss our next steps, this web site
> http://wsis.ecommons.ca ,
> with its French sister site http://smsi.agora-electronique.ca .

I'll again disagree with you in regards to the GCN site - the conference 
in oct 2002 did have a large canadian presence, and informal, formal and 
electronic discussions have been taking place since then to further the 
involvement of canadian civil society.

But, the internet is vast, and perhaps the group in question wasn't 
large enough to be though of the "only specific place" for discussions. 
but they were there - and keeping them in mind, and collaborating with 
them would serve us all.

on another point, if you consider Youth as part of civil society, then 
they too have been "around" and active. TakingITglobal has been a huge 
participant at yes, the international level, as well as the canadian 
level - having recieved funding from DFAIT, industry canada and perhaps 
other departments too to engage youth and other stakeholders in WSIS 
consultations in canada, for canadians.

<http://ycdo.takingitglobal.org/policy/canadawsisyouth>

as key participants, they too should be involved . My personal view is 
that without their engagement - we aren't truly representing canadian 
civil society, but a segment. Thus, they too should be involved in any 
initiative calling itself the "only site". as you can notice, i'm not 
confortable with a site calling itself the only canadian resource.




> We are working hard to ensure that the many groups in Canada,
> including those who knew about or went to Geneva and those who did
> not, are fully included in the process. That had not been done
> previously, and is a task that will require all of us to work together.
>


in that i agree with you and am keen to see that outreach and 
development occur.

> I am pleased to announce that we also have an email list that will
> support these efforts.
> Please subscribe at
> http://lists.ecommons.net/mailman/listinfo/wsis-smsi
> (List originated December 9, 2003, but we preferred to build up the
> web site).


thanks for telling me about it - news to me!


> Robert, I would not have started this thread but since you have
> displayed a temper and arrogant attitude that astonishes, allow me to
> make some observations (which have also been communicated to me by
> others):

me , arrogant and temper. now, now - i won't engage in personal 
comments. I will let my actions, my involvement, and engagement in WSIS 
over a year and a half and commitment speak for itself.

my answer official answer to that comment is - I respect your view, 
however have a different one.




> - No one tried to inform Canadian citizens at large about the Wsis
> process, prior to Geneva. (Canadian Commission for Unesco did in our
> view a credible job of alerting Canadian civil society groups about
> Wsis).


Industry canada had planned to launch a campaign in the spring of 2003. 
However, it did not launch the initiative as planned - much to the 
dismay of those who knew of the plan.

The GCN website and the organization behind it also had plans for 
expansion and outreach - however funds fromm Industry canada, cida, and 
idrc failed to materialize.

to my knowledge the only groups to receive funding were the canadian 
youth caucus, indigenous groups and those working on gender and ICT 
issues around wsis.


>We at the national not for profit eCommons/agora have been
> trying to network horizontally around Wsis for some time now, because
> our basic goals including closing digital divides and ensuring common
> spaces to link Canadian communities, are compatible with Wsis goals.
> Last summer for instance we surveyed all Canadian NGOs accredited to
> Wsis to find out their goals and intentions for Geneva.

well, that's great. job well done!

> The results of
> that survey can be found at the home pages of the www.ecommons.net and
> www.agora-electronique.net sites.
> - We have linked to and invited in all possible groups, including
> Alain 's community networking global group. More are coming in daily.
> Had someone been doing what we are doing when we started, we would not
> have started. We would have complimented what others are doing, as
> this is always our approach (since 1997). Our eLab's motto is " Let us
> not reinvent the wheel, let's connect the spokes. "

and to that - i commend you, and hope that's how things continue to be 
done.

> We started this initiative, have developed it, continue to grow and
> steward it. To pretend that you do not know of this web site
> initiative is simply not credible.

see answer above.

> - So the question becomes: what is the problem?


no problem - sent a personal message to not to a list, but to a small 
group of people (you, your collegue and alain) and see myself as having 
to defend my actions, my comments and words.



> eCommons/agora is taking on this task of working with all groups in a
> fully inclusive manner to see that we reach out to newcomers

great. wish you all the luck and succcess.

> We held a great meeting last week in Toronto on follow up to Wsis. We
> will hold one soon with interested associates in Montreal You were
> invited in Toronto, and did not reply, nor did you show up. At all
> points, we have been inclusive, and cooperative.


well, might i remind you that i did mention to you in Ottawa at the 
unesco event that i had a family hospitalization to deal with. my family 
is very close and important to me, and as you might be able to 
understand it took me away from yours, and other committments i would 
have liked to have attended to.



> You have been competitive and alas seem to think that you are the only
> person who speaks for Canadian civil society.


not the case. I will say, i'll just disagree with your comment - others 
who have dealt with me in engaging cs at the international, and YES, 
national scene know otherwise.


> We did not elect you, I have no idea who did, and I now question your
> motives, albeit I have tried to overlook your lack of friendliness and
> cooperation in the past, and I totally refute your lack of facts and
> your incredible arrogant attitude, and consider that your actions have
> created barriers to a common front for civil society, which is what
> those of us in Canada who care about this process would prefer to see.


perhaps that's you impression. i'm sorry you feel that way about me, 
obviously you don't know me well enough, nor have worked (yet) with me 
to  know of the work i've done, and how inclusive i am on the subject.

I hope that this, albeit heated dialog can lead to a realization that 
you, I and yes others need to work more collaboratively to bring our 
distinctive ways of engaging members of canadian society, government and 
NGOs to have them engaged in the coming phases of wsis at home and 
abroad.


> Sorry to others who have to witness this. However, guess it is a good
> sign that we care so passionately here in the land of ice and snow.
> Since Robert has not communicated online in French, I will not ask my
> associates to reframe this en Francais.


je peut comprend le français, et aussi l'espagnole.
>
> I call for serious attention to the legitimacy and credibility of a so
> called focal point for North America who is clearly not interested in
> fostering the kind of cooperative spirit that we all need to work
> towards.


gee , lis - i think you have gone too far.

I'll just say you've gone a BIT too far in your critisism.

I have been involved in the wsis since prepcom1, and have worked closely 
with groups in the usa, europe, latin america and international NGOs in 
regrads to wsis.

At wsis precom 2- eing recommended by several leading canadian ngos and 
industry canada - i was honoured to be selected as the sole civil 
society delegate at wsis prepcom 2.


My focal point position was a result of my name being put forward by the 
members of the european caucus (which at the time included the 
paneuropean region as well as canada and the USA) at the wsis prepcom 2 
meeting in feb 2002 in geneva. As you may know, due to the memorandum of 
undestanding signed with the  official canadian delegation at the time - 
i  was unable to accept and passed the position over to my collegues at 
CPSR. however when the memorandum expired, and when my position on the 
delegation came to an end, i was asked to substitute for my cpsr 
collegue. Knowing that a subsitution was not as democratic postition, i 
submitted my name for confirmation  at the first european/canadian/us 
caucus meeting at wsis prepcom3.

There are many more ways things i can say - i don't think i have to 
submit a resume/cv to prove my actions.

I'll just say this - there was no need to critical, as it appears - 
attack me in public. I have been , and will continue to be deeply 
committed to wsis. I have attempted to be inclusive, working with 
organizations from civil society, government and international 
institutions to bring issues of the information society home to 
Canadians and, the countries in the developing world where i am active.

Others, including you may prefer a different approach - a different 
style..which is ok, diversity is good. if we can all collaborate and 
work towards a common goal - great. but, please - launching into 
personal attacks in public - that's not a nice thing to do.

regards

Robert